I’m going to start up a new regular feature here at On The Pitch – a Question of the Week (QOTW). Based on whatever might be gripping the soccer world or my own feeble brain at any given moment, I’ll try to use the QOTW to stimulate some debate and commentary among soccer fans. I’ll also include a poll for those of you who want to make your opinion known but don’t feel like commenting 🙂 But the idea here is to generate debate around a given question.
I expect many of the questions will relate to youth soccer, but not all. If you happen to find the question interesting enough to blog about, by all means trackback or if your blog doesn’t support Track/Pingbacks – post a comment with a link to your post. This way folks can easily find ALL the debate.
I’ll try to do this every Wednesday. Yes, I know I’m posting this on Thursday – it’s been a crazy week!
So without further Adu (OK that was bad)…
Should offside Be Called for U10 Small Sided Matches?
I wrote a fairly long post on this a while back, so I won’t bore you again with all my thoughts on this. Just read the original post. To summarize the pros and cons (of NOT calling offside):
Pros
- 8/9 year olds can’t grasp the offside concept
- Cost for 3 official crews can be expensive compared to a single official
- Shortage of qualified referees makes staffing matches difficult
- Field is too short
- Added: Players that age can’t pass 20-30yds to the cherry picker.
Cons
- 8/9 year olds can grasp basic concept (don’t go past last defender without the ball)
- No offside encourages/allows cherry picking
- Cherry pickers actually pull defensive players further back, reducing their ball touches
- Younger matches are often perfect training grounds for match officials – we need to train more officials and this reduces the outlets to train them.
- Added: Encourages longball play – team gains possession and forwards crash the box looking for a long ball to poke into the goal uncontested.
I’m sure I missed some, but those about cover it. Post a comment with any others. So what do you think? Should U10 small sided games use offside and line judges? Most states in the US don’t have offside at U10 (I believe North Carolina is the only state that still does, and only at Challenge and above officially) However I’m sure many local associations in other states still use it – the only way to track it is in the state cup/tournament rules.
So what do you think? Are we being practical not teaching these kids offside? Or is it something the kids CAN grasp and should be taught, even if in a limited form?
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August 24th, 2006 at 10:39 am
What do you mean by cherry picking exactly?
August 24th, 2006 at 10:51 am
Basically planting an offensive player near the goal with the hope his/her teammates will kick the ball to them and they’ll be right in front of the goal, with the ball, unopposed.
August 24th, 2006 at 1:26 pm
Knowing absolutely nothing about youth soccer I would say it should be called, but with only one official. Even though there would be a depth perception problem (hence the AR’s), a center should be able to tell when someone is blatantly offsides. That would cut down on serious cherry picking.
August 24th, 2006 at 2:14 pm
John, That’s what we’re going to do in our U8 age division (we do 6v6, not 4v4). More fun for the center ref and at this age it’s not like the kids are doing an offsides trap or timing their runs. It’s just basic ‘don’t go past the last defender without the ball, etc.
Now with U10, I’ve seen some kids in the Spring season start to time runs and work at staying even with the defenders until the pass. Not that that is a bad thing… But a center might have more trouble calling the close ones.
August 24th, 2006 at 3:22 pm
I think they should call the offsides. At that age, if the players are offside it’s probably going to be pretty obvious, so the ref ought to be able to get most of the calls right even without the help of linesmen (or assistant referees, whatever we’re supposed to call them now). Plus, you might as well teach the kids about offside from the beginning, rather than suddenly changing the rules on them one year.
I should note that I’m coming at this from the perspective of having played 11-a-side from age six — it might be different with fewer players on the pitch — with offsides being called but no linesmen, just parent volunteers to run the lines and flag for throw-ins. And it worked just fine for us.
(We also had to walk uphill, barefoot in the snow to get to our games, of course.)
August 24th, 2006 at 4:02 pm
Well, the field is shorter – 50-60yds, but still – a 60 yard field is fairly long with only 5 per side (not including the keeper) and most teams push the defenders up towards midfield on the attack. This gets more players more ball touches. That’s my main concern – cherry pickers hold the defense back where they stand around half the game waiting for the ball to come their way and the whole point of small side is to get kids more ball touches per game.
August 25th, 2006 at 12:37 pm
Calling offside at U-10 is ridiculous. Even the folks at the USSF say it’s silly – and those guys have more soccer and coaching knowledge any of us will ever have. I have been coaching U-10 challenge for two year – been to so many coaching clinics over the past five years it’s sick (hope to get my USSF “C†in the next year or two but my dissertation needs to be completed first – the “C†is my personal reward).
OK – enough about me – NCYSA tried to vote the no offside for U-10 at the challenge council meeting in May (I think that was the month). North Carolina is the only USYSA state that still has offside for U-10. Well, we still do – since it was voted down.
The Challenge scheduling league that I am involved with (DESC) has NO offside for U-10 – never had a problem with “cherry pickingâ€. Maybe the people that think “cherry picking†is a problem should not stay at the bar so late at night…
Ching, ching – my two cents!
August 25th, 2006 at 2:59 pm
Bill,
I often chuckle when I hear ‘USSF says so and they’re smarter than all of us will ever aspire to be so why question it’ I have heard that line, almost word for word, from many people in various discussions and it always puzzles me. When did we lose our right to question the USSF and talk about things? I guess my point is I see a lot of soccer leagues doing things along the same rough structure, but with certain things tweaked differnet ways. Is that bad because it’s not exactly USSF certified? I’m not sure it is. Note I’m not saying they aren’t experts in their field, they are. But many grass roots volunteers are also very knowledgable and I’d say their insights are also very valuable to a debate, even if they aren’t the ‘USSF’.
Note that the NCYSA Challenge vote was 25-27 in favor of dropping offsides. The Rec Council just within the past week voted to get rid of offsides something like 12-4. Of course there are almost 100 NCYSA leagues, so you can’t really read much into that vote – it was a small representation (there was quroum, barely). The point is – if half of the leagues representated at the Challenge council wanted to keep offsides – there are a lot of people who don’t agree with the USSF recommendations. Even with the few leagues at the Rec Council – the debate was very interesting (and yes ‘Because USSF says so’ was said more than once 🙂 ) Every time I hear a debate about this I hear ‘we’re the only state to still do it’ which is true. However, just like in NC, not all leagues follow the state recommendations to the T – it would be interesting to know the percentage of leagues that still call offsides in other states at U10 and why they feel it is necessary – even if it conflicts with their state recommendations.
But my main question to you would be this. You stated offsides in U10 is ridiculous. Fair enough. But you never actually mentionedsaid why it was beyond that the USSF says so. I’d be very interested to hear why YOU think so given your background and experience. And why calling it for U10 is detremental to a player’s development.
August 25th, 2006 at 3:51 pm
I think that stressing technical – not tactical work is vital at these younger age levels. Dribbling, passing and shooting activities should be highlighted – OK – let’s say at U-10 when addressing your question of the week. Teaching the offside rule is a tactical part of the sport (as you know). That said, I know that many people feel strongly one way or the other and this posting could go on for ages. My question is why teach offside to U-10s? An early post had youth players playing 11v11? I am not sure I concur with the thoughts of those soccer officials in that part of the country or state.
You are correct that it was a close vote at the NCYSA meeting – I was there too – but could not vote because of my presidency of a scheduling league. When I asked the question on what leagues have offside – I think all but one – the DESC had it.- – the one I am involved with.
I hope you do not mind putting your website info on it (the DESC website) and mentioning your site to our eastern Carolina soccer community.
Anyway, I really like your website – your opinions and thoughts – gets conversation going and such.
Not that I am skirting your original question but I have not seen playing without the offside rule be a particular problem with the DESC. No one in the league ever says anything about it. Not that anyone can’t. The fields for U-10 are small enough – maybe too small for the offside rule?
Gotta run – have soccer practice with my boys – keep up the good work!
Bill Mallett
August 25th, 2006 at 4:04 pm
Bill,
I really appreciate the DESC link and kind words! Sometimes you wonder who actually READs this stuff 🙂
I was just needling you a little bit in my comment above to get your true take on it – alwasy enjoy reading/hearing divergant opinions!
One quick question when you get back – what length fields does DESC play on primarily for U10? 45? 50? 60? That 15 yard variance is a lot – with 6v6 defintiely alters the game plan depending on the length (and width) of the field – but that’s another post. You might say a 45 yard field makes offsides tough, but on a 60 yard field, maybe not. Anyway, mostly my curiosity!
August 26th, 2006 at 4:30 pm
These are the dimensions that DESC can use. It can vary depending on the association.
Length: minimum 45 yards maximum 60 yards
Width: minimum 35 yards maximum 45 yards
And probably more people come onto our site than you think and people do red the stuff.
I’ll look forward to you next question of the week.
Bill
September 5th, 2006 at 1:58 pm
Bill,
I always thought we should have had offsides in the DESC to be consistent with the rest of the state of NC. It made for an awkward transition in tournaments. I believe that there were way too many instances of cherrypicking, including by my team ( it is amazing what 9 year olds can figure out on their own!). The problem, as one writer noted, is that a cherrypicker ( or a plain lazy striker) forces a defender to remain in the defensive half of the field, which is contrary to the spirit of 6v6 small sided youth soccer. Anyway, it doesn’t really matter that much….the kids have a great time…the games are fast paced….Thanks for everything you do for soccer in Eastern NC!!!
Joe
October 5th, 2006 at 9:17 am
Started coaching kindergardeners 16 years ago, have coached up to high school age, don’t coach as much now because I ref so much, but I still help out with one team.
The little kids will learn whatever you present to them. The offside rule is a part of the game of soccer, and should be taught. The rec league(s) that I work within now have a rules summary at http://www.roysa.com/RuleSummary.html. The field sizes are on an older version of the summary at http://www.roysa.com/divRulesSummary.html. The kids figure out offside faster than many of the non-playing parents. It is interesting to hear some of these kids, who have played with offside in our rec program up to U8, go to the state-organized select U9 & 10 program with (thier words) “those stupid rules”. They look forward to moving up to U11 when thay can play “the right way” again.
-The ref: the small field doesn’t need more than one ref. Can that ref get the precision of a three-person crew for offsie? No, but they get the obvious stuff, which is Good Enough for the youngsters. This helps to keep the spirit of the offside alive, while not being too nit-picky.
October 5th, 2006 at 9:37 am
I’m taking my U10’s to the State Cup this year and probably my biggest fear is they’ll be going from playing offsides, to a tournament where offsides is not called. Should be interesting. I’m still trying to figure out how I’ll explain it to them in a way that we don’t get caught with a forward all by himself near the goal and yet still play our pressing attack with the defenders at mid field. It’ll all depend on the teams we face and what they do.
October 5th, 2006 at 9:47 am
I noticed this post got some hits recently from a mailing list post where a referee got to work a U10 match and enjoyed it, however the ref wondered about the lack of offsides and the impact on the game:
I think this highlights a VERY important point that I touched on in my earlier post where I had concerns about cherry picking. But the referee above highlights an even worse effect. In encourages coaches to teach longball which many people, myself included, have lamented about. We need to encourage young players to possess the ball and discourage long ball. Just look at how well longball worked for us in the World Cup 🙂